Kutip:
sephia says : ini di luar hewan2 yang asexual yah, maksudku yang jelas2 ada jenis kelamin jantan dan betina. Kalo sesama jenis, mereka justru merasa "bersaing". Selama ini rajin liat discovery channel, kalo emang ada phenomena gay di hewan, pasti udah sering dimuat dong!

- karena kita tidak bisa mengerti kehidupan dan tingkah laku hewan sebaik kita mengerti manusia, jadi gue anggap ada tidaknya hewan homo nggak pasti.

Kutip:
nah tujuannya dia bilang ke public itu apa? Mau berharap supaya ada orang gay yang tertarik ama dia? bukannya bishop ga boleh nikah, apalagi have sex?

- don't really understand human psychology, I suspect, it is really tiring to not become you in front of other people. once again, not so sure.

Kutip:
emang betul tdk ada 100% baik dan 100% jahat. Tp dlm memutuskan apakah seseorang mau memilih suatu agama, itu adalah keputusan 100%, mau terima atau tidak. Kalau aku mau jadi penganut agama Jewish, (umpamanya), maka aku jg hrs menerima konsekwensi utk menjaga makanan yg kosher (halal, haram), tdk boleh setengah2.
Kalau mau jadi Kristiani,..ya jgn jadi gay! simple aja kan?

Soal gay...itu bukan soal terlahir atau tdk..itu semua adalah PILIHAN. Kalau memang ada kelainan hormon, dll. dgn kemajuan teknologi, semuanya bisa diobati dan diterapi..kalau mau. kalau tidak mau???? ya sdhlah..just be a gay!

- cuman pingin tanya siapa saja sih yang kristiani sini, apakah kalian sudah merasa kalo kalian bener2 100% jalanin jalan sebagai truely christian ? I don't know the answer, but surely you know.
- I mentioned before, ngobatin gay emang kayak terapi orang yang abis patah kaki/ patah tangan? kalo cuman patah tangan, physiotherapy will do, setiap gerakan otot2 dan tulang bisa di simulate, kalo udah jadi gay apanya yang mo disimulate, mo ganti DNA ( emang ada teknologi ganti DNA kayak ban serep). cuman contoh loh yah! supposed gay = normal, straight = abnormal, apakah kita2 yang straight akan gampang gitu aja di convert jadi gay ? chancenya berapa gede kalo pergi ke psikolog paling tenar deh ?

Kutip:
n this particular case, the gay person in question happened to be a Bishop. I can't say that I don't care if my bishop, a person with a power to influence the general masses, is gay. Leaders, especially spiritual leaders, must be able to teach what they believe by examples, and what better examples are there to look at than seeing at what he or she practices in his or her daily lifes. And this is the area where I have problem with. I don't agree that this particular daily life is to be condoned, and surely I can't say that he can provide a good example to young people to follow.

- What does spiritual leaders teach other ? how to love other people, perform good living, blah....blah... (everything good will do). I think, they won't face any dificulty to give any example in real life since they don't have to teach people to give sex education . This is just my simple point of view though

Kutip:
Yes, he can always do that, and as a matter of fact he should. But one of those days, he must also face and answer the question to the contradiction between his action and the condemnation of his action by the book that the he swears to be the "truth".

- I can't really answer this question as I said before, this is the hardest question in this thread, perhaps the only approach I can give is , do all the priest, bishop, pope, or whatever (don't really know about their ranks) always agree 100% with the bible in reality ? Just wanna emphasize the reality words here, that's why I mentioned before, I believe every religious leader or any leader if that's matter have to face at least one dilemma, and they have to hear their conscience to get pass this dilemma.

Kutip:
Unfortunately religious order is not a democratic society per se. You and I have no voice on who will be chosen as our bishop. I don't think the masses will stand for it. In the best case scenario, people will move to other "compatible" churches, but in the worst case scenario, there will be a revolt within the ranks and files that will lead to a schizm. Either ways, the church in general stand to loose. Is this risk worth it?

- I know it isn't democratic society, but there is a process to choose these people and we have to accept the process since it is the way they work.
- Perhaps it is time to start a new revolution. We don't know if we never try. dont really know about christian history, but I think when martin luther king did something revolutionary, I believe the orthodox side would have thought was it worth it or not . And now, the majority of people must say " it's worth it ". (correct me about this, if I am wrong, christian history isn't my field).

Kutip:
Kalau kita ada dorongan untuk mencuri, membunuh atau menjarah, terus gimana? apakah kita berdosa? Kalau orang kikir, pemabuk, pemfitnah, penipu saja sudah disamakan dengan penyembahan berhala, padahal kalau kita perhatikan kesalahan mereka tidak selalu merugikan orang lain secara langsung, tp itu sudah jelas dibilang mereka tidak mendapat bagian dari Kerajaan Allah atau di condemn sama Allah.

- the root of everything comes from our mind, jadi kalo mikir untuk mencuri sudah pasti dosa.

Kutip:
Memang, pengadilan ada ditangan Allah, kita tidak menjudge orang kenapa dan mengapa dan bagaimana. Seperti yg di point sama pepe, yg jadi masalah disini adalah orang yang menjadi gay ada orang yg seharusnya menjadi pemimpin secara rohani. Bisa saja kita tidak perduli apa dan bagaimana seseorang selama ia baik dan tidak mengganggu kita, tp bagaimana kalau kita itu mengganggu kita, apa baru kita mengambil tindakan? sekali lagi tidak ada unsur sara dalam diskusi ini, tapi hanya pendapat semata, bagaimana mungkin seseorang yg seharusnya menjadi pemimpin spiritual jelas-jelas melanggar apa yg dilarang oleh Tuhan yang ia sembah ( I assume everyone agree that homosexuality is condemn by God). Juga sepanjang pendengeran saya (bisa salah) orang yg hidup sebagai gay memiliki gaya hidup promiscuity, kalau tidak dari mana mereka tahu mereka gay atau bukan?

But everyone entitled for their own opinion. That's why we have freewill.

- that's human, selalu memikirkan dirinya sendiri
- bener dia melanggar, but they just can't help it, karena pelanggaran yang dia lakukan bukan karena dia ingin jadi gay tapi emang dari sononya dan there is no way to fix it.
- yes everyone has freewill, oleh karena itu kalo ada orang yang ingin berbuat baik, berikan dia kesempatan.

Kutip:
**btw gaya hidup 513 apa yah?

so -----do------mi
clear know