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Hi guys, I found this great debate (discussion) from a history forum in the internet. Credit to Simaqian history forum.
http://www.simaqianstudio.com
This is basically the full excerpt of their discussion about G30S PKI (Suharto and it's involvement with CIA to replace Soekarno).
Very interesting discussions, facts, questions, answers with many holes yet still unanswered
Enjoy  |
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Credit to Mr. X at Simaqian history forum
Kutip:
Hi,
I am new to this forum.
I've learnt from several people that Soeharto, the ex-president of Indonesia, came into power because of CIA (US) involvement. Apparently, CIA had been trying to assasinate Soekarno, the previous president, several times unsuccessfully.
CIA and Soeharto then somehow created a conspiracy to take over the power from Soekarno by blaming the September 30, 1965 incident, to the Communist party (which at the time was one of the biggest in Asia after the Chinese Communist party under Mao, and the Vietnamese Communist party) and as a result, eliminate and ban the Communist party in Indonesia, and led to one of the biggest massacres commited in the world forgotten by the media and the world altogether. Over 500,000 people were killed over the period of several months and more followed as Soeharto gradually, with the support of CIA, took the power away from Soekarno and put him into house arrest. And later, Soekarno died during the house arrest, but the general public in Indonesia believed he was assassinated by the CIA or Soeharto.
I would like to know if there's an disclosed public announcement by the CIA out there that would support this Indonesian recent history ? Supposedly, CIA publishes new public disclosure every 20 or 30 something years about their involvements or other important affairs they have involved with.
Further, does anyone in this board know anything about this and could enlighten me with more info, data, websites, back up ?
Thanks |
| #3 |
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replied by one of the member
Kutip:
Hello & welcome, X. For a start, go to: http://www.antenna.nl/wvi/eng/ic/pki/dav/da3.html
Just type in appropriate keywords, in this case such as "cia suharto" to your favorite search engine - you'll get plenty of hits. |
| #4 |
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Follow-up by Mr. X
Kutip:
Thank you so much for the link. It's a good url with tons of important information.
However, do you know any link to CIA websites with all their disclosure of covert actions in South East Asia the 30-40 years ago.
Also, are you familiar with this subject at all ? Do you really think this all happened. There are many things happened in Asia and being ignored by the Western world - the Communist Massacre in Indonesia (1965), the Japanese WWII massacre of South East Asian civilliants, especially their sadistic treatment of women in South East Asia, China, and Korea. |
| #5 |
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Another reply by undisclosed member
Kutip:
Hello, X. I don't know a CIA link offhand - just type "central intelligence agency" into your search engine, you will turn up something useful.
I'm not very familiar with the history of Indonesia.
If you do enough reading you will gradually get a sense of what took place & what accounts are reliable.
Naturally any kind of official or semi-official government-published
material has to be used with great caution. In general, independent scholarship is the most trustworthy.
There are a number of reasons why some historical events have not been well publicized in the West. Racism & ethnocentrism are two. Africa, Asia, & Latin America are normally at the bottom of the list for news coverage here.
Over 30,000 civilians were killed recently in a UNITA rebel seige of an Angolan city, an event that went virtually unregarded in the US mainline media.
Another reason for large chunks of modern history being "missing" is that events involving war crimes & crimes against humanity committed by Washington, US corporations, & "Allied" states are in effect banned from our commercial media.
In other cases, the details were not known until some time later. There is a recent book out in the US titled THE RAPE OF NANKING, detailing Japanese military atrocities in that Chinese city.
This book has received a lot of publicity, which tends to further obscure the role of Western occupation & domination of China, including how Britain forced the importation of opium.
Western aggression against China for the sake of corporate profits caused the rise of Chinese Communist resistance & contributed to the ruinous Southeast Asian Wars following WWII.
But a book retailing the sins of the Japanese naturally sells much better in the US market than one which implicates the West in some responsibility for its own problems.
Our basic insecurity & megalomania drive us to believe that we are the "good guys" & are never wrong; we blame others for all of our difficulties. For that delusion we pay a high price. |
| #6 |
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GREAT REPLY BY KEWL, a Historian
Kutip:
That's a very interesting proposition, historians here are trying to solve a lot of the vagueness surrounding the down fall of Soekarno. There are several main schools of thought on the 65' coup:
- That Soeharto, backed by the CIA, instigated a coup (done by men from under his tutelage) and then blammed it on the communists.
-That Soekarno supported the communist to launch a coup to exterminate 'western' elements in the army
-That it wasn't a coup, but a power struggle between factions in the military. The 'coup' here was done not by anyone of high ranking in the military, rather by those middle ranking elements...
There is another explanation that I couldn't remember right now.
But some interesting things: Soekarno immediately left the palace to Halim Airport, that the communist party leaders were unsure of what to do and had, while generally and vaguely, supported the coup, not seem to know a thing, that the main perpetrator, Untung, is actually known as a subordinate of Soeharto during the Irian campaign, and that of the 10 high ranking officials targeted for assasination, Soeharto was next in line in the command ladder, but was never targeted. Unfortunately the leader of the communist, Aidit, was murdered when the soldiers found him hiding in his native village, so there was never any confirmation that the communist was indeed behind the coup.
The coup was done by several middle ranking men in the army (the only branch of the military that had few communist sympathysers, not like the navy and air force). It was done in Jakarta and Yogyakarta and was to kidnap a number of high ranking army officers that were thought to be in touch with the CIA to plot a coup to wrest power from Soekarno.
The generals were killed and their bodies dumped inside a well. They also took over the Radio station and some government buildings. The coup was exterminated by the military in just one day!! Under the only person in Jakarta high enough to command the army, Soeharto, he had single handedly quell down the coup. That's the strange thing about the coup. Were it an operation done by the communist, it couldn't have been that sloppy. They had millions of followers not to mention those in the military and the government. I doubt the communist was the one that had done this... but unfortunately it is still an open book.
There is another perplexing thing around the giving of the Supersemar letter by Soekarno to Soeharto, which essentially gave power of the government to Soeharto. Some unveriviable sources says that it was conducted under duress, under a gunpoint. Soekarno was exiled inside his palace (such was his charisma that Soeharto didn't dare to touch him), brokenhearted, he died alone.
There is a good book on the massacre of communists here, unfortunately its in bahasa indonesia... The main massacre seemed to have been Java, especially in the Islamic area of East Java and the island of Bali. |
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Another speculations and replies by Mr. X
Kutip:
Thanks for the reponse kewlcity.
I still have several questions linger in my mind regarding the Sept 30 GESTAPU in Indonesia. But from what I've gathered this should be the explanation to it.
1) First of all, the only possible explanation would be Soeharto was backed by the CIA. At the time, the West, especially US was very concerned about the rapid spread of Communism. Cuba was one hour away from the Continental USA (Florida), USSR and China were the two big Communist countries and Vietnam was adopting fast, and the US went the distance by blocking the spread of Communism by entering to the Vietnam War. Indonesia is obviously next on the list. Soekarno might not be a Communist, but he's obviously giving the West a hard time. In fact, Soekarno and several other third world country leaders, such as Nehru of India, were building a new coalition (I believe known as Non-Bloc organization). It's bad enough the US had to deal with Communism. If the rouge nations such as India, Srilanka, African countries, and other South East Asian nations built another coalition, the situation would be much harder to control.
2) Soeharto might had been the leader of KOSTRAD. But how powerful was that ? After all, according the research I did, he was penalized for making illegal trades with an Overseas Chinese, by the name of Liem Soe Liong and Bob Hassan (Both were later on became two of the richest Conglomerates in Indonesia and Soeharto's closest cronies). Surely, when Nasution, who was the highest rank Military official, who had a different believe than A. Yani (another Military top official), found out, he removed Soeharto from his power and sent him to Yogya or Semarang (not sure). But in several years prior to the Sept 30 GESTAPU, Soeharto was able to creep back into the Military power and had the power in KOSTRAD. But really, how powerful this KOSTRAD at this time ?
Come on.. Soekarno was the true leader, he's basically the voice of the Indonesian people. A Yani was also another true hero and was the top guy in the military. And the six or seven Generals who was murdered in during the coup was also in support of A Yani, which in turn, was a Sokarno loyalist. The only other Supporter that Soeharto might had was Nasution. But Nasution was higher in Military rank than Soeharto was and didn't Nasution have his own ambition ?
3) Next, the military fractions were divided into two. But the actual situation was more complicated than that. Soekarno himself was not really a pro-Communist, but he liked the presence of Communist because Indonesia could utilize its presence as a balance of power from the American subversion and influences. On top of that, Soekarno would have more leverage to ask for aid and fund from Russia or China. A Yani was not a Communist either, but he was a true loyalist to Soekarno, and therefore supported his believe. Soeharto, on the other hand, I believe had a bad blood with Soekarno and Nasution was a pro CIA Military official. So, both need CIA's backing in terms of financials, funds, logistics, and other necessary means to perhaps get rid of Soekarno.
What I am not clear of is Nasution. Why would he help Soeharto ? Was he in an agreement with Soeharto to create the Sept 30 GESTAPU and later divide the power btwn the both of them. But Soeharto being the smarter one, decided to keep him quiet all those time by immediately put him into a house arrest ? But Nasution had more power than Soeharto at this time, why couldn't he use his power to outmanuver Soeharto ?
4) It's clear that Soeharto uses his own men or at least, utilize his CIA backing to create the Sept 30 GESTAPU, and made it seemed like the Communist was behind it. But again, I didn't quite understand how Soeharto, only being the head of KOSTRAD, could have eliminated the entire Communist party and its organization ? The communist party was one of the largest parties in Indonesia at the time. Their members were spread out everywhere in the military and government. How could Soeharto, all of the sudden, be that powerful ? The Communist party had the power and men necessary to retaliate as well, so why couldn't they do this ? KOSTRAD was not a large division of the Indonesian military. And most of Soekarno loyalist, including the Air Force still had a chance to retaliate. Some Indonesian historians said, it is because Soekarno was a True Nationalist. He didn't want to create a civil war in Indonesia. Instead, he decided to follow along, and just gave in to Soeharto.
But do you really think that this is the truth ? After all, Soekarno just declared himself as President for Life. And from all his past political career history, he seemed to be an ambitious guy who always stood up for his rights. Yes, he's a loyalist but I think he had his own ego as well. So, what actually happened between 1965 to 1967 ? How in the world did Soeharto with his cunning and brilliant strategies, were able to control and eliminate all the Communist fractions in the military and government, contain Nasution, control the media, control young University students of Indonesia, and finally corner Soekarno and strip him from all the power, which was known as the March 11 Letter of Supersemar.
All this time, obviously, Soeharto still maintained illegal trades with his long-term Chinese cronies to finance his activities and off course, get fund and all necessary support from the CIA. There's no doubt about that, because Indonesia immediately became quiet supporter of US right after Soeharto took the office. The US during this time, also orchestrated the Rupiah downfall which led to the cutting of the Rupiah and finally, the riots and mass economic struggle during this time, and led the University students and young Indonesians to believe that Soekarno was not doing his job the way he should
However, I still couldn't believe what happened during these last two years of Soekarno's reign. He was slowly but swiftly dismissed from all his might by Soeharto, which was unheard of at the time. And yet, none of his supporters or the Indonesian people stood up and supported the father of Indonesian independence. There's a missing piece somewhere, and I want to know what it is. I wish I could ask Soeharto himself.
Any insights ? suggestions ? ideas ? |
| #8 |
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Final Reply by KEWL, the historian
Kutip:
Hi Mr X.
I'm sorry for the delay in my reply, I've been busy with the coming exams and papers to write...
Your right about the suspicions on Soeharto. He was just a Kostrad leader, but the real issue is really the weakness of Soekarno, in my opinion. There was a general and widespread discontent at his rule, and even though he was still looked on by the commoner with his/her utmost respect, students, intellectuals and artists, not to mention strong parts of the community had already given up hope on him.
His Nasakom, the doctrine by which communists have succesfully infiltrated formerly non-communists areas of lives have provoked a large antipathy toward them, and thus toward him.
The economy was in shambles, with a 600 % inflation rate at the peak of the crisis and long rice lines in Jakarta and other cities. I think he realised what a precarious position he was in and thus had to act carefully.
I think why Nasution had not taken over the leadership, while he was in a position to do so, was the fact that he was not a Javanese. Indonesia had never had a non-Javanese president even til now. He might have thought that he could control the wily Soeharto. But as history proves, the president that has earned him the nickname 'the devious dalang (puppet master)' has outwit a lot of his enemies.
And there is something you have to say about Soeharto: he was pretty smart. Sure 32 years was helped by proficient amount of western funding and a stable and growing economy, but he had a lot of manouvering to do to place him in a position (a position that many consider as being less of an absolute despot, than some wily general that had to keep the power balance in order) as the dictator of Indonesia.
You've made some great argument on that, I have to do some research on it to answer you satisfactorily, so sorry for my sparse comment. It isn't my area of interest.
Yes, it is a very bizzare thing that happened to the communist. I think what happened was that they were stunned at the event and hadn't time to act in a very confusing and fast event.
Aidit, while supporting the 'coup', hadn't seemed to know what was going on. In fact, none of the top communists leaders seemed to have known what was going on. Unfortunately, Aidit was murdered in his home village, so the extent of the communist involvement is still in the dark (I don't think they had any, really).
But again, the resentment toward the communist was real and it was felt. During the days after the coup, communists were blamed a wide spectrum of the community. Their headquarter was burned down by a mob. It was a free for all for non-communist to attack (first using words) at the communist party. The Nasakom had made communist an enemy of many people, thus aside from the traditional muslims, they gained many socialists, nationalists, artists and other people as enemies.
As they knew that the situation was unfavourable to them, they might have thought it better to lay low. A strange thing was that there were a lot of communists elements (especially in central java) that had wanted to act right away, at least to try to defend the communists from the accusations spewed by their enemies. Unfortunately it wasn't fortcoming from the communist leadership, and the only one that had feebly defended the communists was Soekarno himself.
The shadowy event leading to the transfer of power from Soekarno to Soeharto, the Supersemar event, is still a very vague thing that historians are still unsure of.
There are some who say that Soeharto held a gun to Soekarno's head and demanded him to sign it. There are also some that say that the letter never existed (it doesn't exist now, lost somewhere as the formal answer). But the letter contained the effective giving of power to Soeharto and that was done in aftermath of the coup.
So while Soekarno stayed on for two years as 'president', he was ineffectual and shunned. Soeharto had managed to destroy the many communists then posted in many parts of the government and the military was the result of the fact that there was a great trust in him to clear the mess up by a large proportion of the community.
People had cheered for Soeharto because they feel that Soekarno has failed in producing a healthy and prosperous nation. Also because his cold-war politics were considered unproductive and hurtful to this poor nation.
We still love Soekarno, even when he was at his weakest, even when people had cheered at his downfall, the nation slowly wept also. So much so that Soeharto did not dare to touch a hand on him. He was confined to his palace and died broken-hearted and lonely.
Even today we still love Soekarno. How could we not, he was the founder of the nation. He is still looked on today as that 20s engineer graduate, that fiery orator that had defended the nation against the Dutch (when the nation did not even existed yet) in his trial for inciting hatred toward the authorities that had launched his political carreer, still brimming with passion and ideals, with that third world dream of nationality that had been such a failure for many...
And we could never love Soeharto, even though Soeharto had build the nation, even though under his rule the economy prospered and people got richer. He was like a snake, taking advantage of situations, with no respect toward anything ideal. He was just too pragmatic and cold hearted, no spark, no charisma... |
| #9 |
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So... what's your opinion on this ? - Temujin |
| #10 |
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Temujin menulis:
Credit to Mr. X at Simaqian history forum
Hi,
I am new to this forum.
I've learnt from several people that Soeharto, the ex-president of Indonesia, came into power because of CIA (US) involvement. Apparently, CIA had been trying to assasinate Soekarno, the previous president, several times unsuccessfully. Harus diingat bahwa Soekarno adalah seorang pemimpin Asia yang karismatik, dan dia adalah orang yang berani menentang Amerika. Keberadaan Soekarno yang karismatik adalah ancaman tersendiri bagi AS.
Bagaimanapun harus diingat akan banyaknya kepentingan AS di Asia, ladang minyak, pertambangan, dll. (yang nantinya di masa orde baru, oleh bantuan Soeharto, ladang minyak, pertambangan, dan hasil alam strategis lainnya banyak dikuasai oleh perusahaan Amerika.)
Soekarno dengan ideologi Nasakom (Nasionalis, Agama, Komunis), jelas merupakan ancaman besar bagi Amerika yang saat itu sedang bersaing ketat dengan Rusia (komunis) untuk melebarkan pengaruh kekuasaan.
Soekarno adalah pemimpin yang dicintai rakyat, dan ia juga seorang negarawan yang berpengaruh (ingat akan kontribusi Soekarno dlm mencetuskan Gerakan Non Blok, dsb). Ada saat dimana Soekarno pernah membuat slogan "Amerika disetrika, Inggris dilinggis!" dan slogan itulah yang membuat rakyat indonesia pada saat itu berbondong-bondong memboikot produk-produk Amerika dan Inggris. (sampai lagu-lagu Beatles aja juga di-banned )
jadi teori kalau CIA mencoba membunuh Soekarno..adalah teori yang SANGAT MUNGKIN.
entar yang lain aku sambung |
| #11 |
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OMG  there is one beauty politician in indospcnet.
sekarang gak perlu takut dibredel lagi ya. apalagi atas inisiatif bos nama webnya juga sering sering ganti he he he |
| #12 |
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satu lagi ... gue nggak pro sukarno tapi yang jelas gue anti Suharto yang notabene anti.... |
| #13 |
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maap... bukannya gak berminat ... tapi peristiwa g 30 s pki itu sudah sedemikian mendalam melukai keluarga gue. Apalagi setelah era suharto. kalo ada civil unrest yang dikorbanin selalu aja etnis tertentu. Bahkan sampai sekarang masih ada yang anti atas etnis tertentu. Satu conto produknya SBKRI, sulit banget seh ngeberantas yang satu ini |
| #14 |
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harimoo menulis:
maap... bukannya gak berminat ... tapi peristiwa g 30 s pki itu sudah sedemikian mendalam melukai keluarga gue. Apalagi setelah era suharto. kalo ada civil unrest yang dikorbanin selalu aja etnis tertentu. Bahkan sampai sekarang masih ada yang anti atas etnis tertentu. Satu conto produknya SBKRI, sulit banget seh ngeberantas yang satu ini Sorry to hear, but you know .... untuk menjadi bangsa yg besar dan bangsa yg maju, kita sebagai warga negara dan penduduk negri haruslah mencoba untuk menggali dan mengetahui kebeneran yg sesungguhnya, walaupun mungkin banyak sekali yg memalukan, atau rasanya harusnya dilupakan saja dan sangat pedih di hati... Hanya dengan tahu apa yg sesungguhnya terjadi lah kita dapat menjadi anak negri dan bangsa yg besar. |
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Temujin menulis:
Another speculations and replies by Mr. X
All this time, obviously, Soeharto still maintained illegal trades with his long-term Chinese cronies to finance his activities and off course, get fund and all necessary support from the CIA. There's no doubt about that, because Indonesia immediately became quiet supporter of US right after Soeharto took the office. The US during this time, also orchestrated the Rupiah downfall which led to the cutting of the Rupiah and finally, the riots and mass economic struggle during this time, and led the University students and young Indonesians to believe that Soekarno was not doing his job the way he should
Any insights ? suggestions ? ideas ? that is so true. Kalau boleh ditelusuri, beberapa saat sebelum kejatuhan Soeharto, Indonesia saat itu terkesan 'memusuhi' Amerika. Bahkan Indonesia membeli kapal-kapal perang (atau pesawat? aku sedikit lupa) dari Rusia...yg kemudian bikin heboh waktu itu. Menteri Pertahanan AS, (William Cohen? atau siapa saat itu aku lupa), bahkan ke Indonesia saat itu. (mungkin utk memperingatkan INdonesia supaya gak macem2 kali ye )
Yah...kalau sekutu sdh mulai selingkuh....apalagi yang harus dilakukan selain mendepaknya? itulah politik bukan? |
| #16 |
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tahu kebenaran masa lalu bukan berarti bisa merubah masa lalu. Just face it day by day. apalagi sekarang setahun rasanya cepet kok. nggak terasa nanti khan udah ganti zaman lagi. Kecuali elu jadi Gie |
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Yah...kalau sekutu sdh mulai selingkuh....apalagi yang harus dilakukan selain mendepaknya? itulah politik bukan?
|
| #18 |
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harimoo menulis:
maap... bukannya gak berminat ... tapi peristiwa g 30 s pki itu sudah sedemikian mendalam melukai keluarga gue. Apalagi setelah era suharto. kalo ada civil unrest yang dikorbanin selalu aja etnis tertentu. Bahkan sampai sekarang masih ada yang anti atas etnis tertentu. Satu conto produknya SBKRI, sulit banget seh ngeberantas yang satu ini peristiwa G30S PKI memang sebuah tragedi kemanusiaan yang besar yang susah dilupakan oleh semua orang. Menurut buku yang aku baca (A Nation in Waiting ..coba baca deh buku itu. cari aja bukunya di Amazon atau dimana) lebih dr 12 juta orang dibantai dalam peristiwa itu. Rata-rata mereka dibantai dengan tuduhan terlibat komunis.
tapi again...sejarah itu ada untuk dipelajari, untuk kemudian menjadi arahan utk bertindak ke masa depan. Masa lalu tdk perlu disesali, bahkan semua pengalaman yang paling pahit juga bisa menjadi berguna kalau dilihat dengan sudut pandang yg berbeda |
| #19 |
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gitu ya  , sekarang greeting ku kok ndak dibales?  |
| #20 |
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G30S PKI itu ga beda ama power struggle yang lain. ga bisa dibilang yang mana yang salah dan yang mana yang benar. pokok yang menang nulis yang nulis sejarah (dan selalu ga seperti yang sesungguhnya terjadi). seperti kata orang: 'the first victim of war is truth'. misal sukarno menang, pasti dia dipuji dan suharto dicap pemberontak. karena suharto yang menang, sukarno dicap ga becus dan suharto sebagai penyelamat bangsa.
seperti kita tau setelah kehancuran fascism (or ultra nationalism) cuma ada dua kubu: capitalism ama communism. capitalism udah menang telak di eropa (at least eropa barat) usai WW2. afrika apalagi australia bisa dibilang milik capitalism juga soalnya jajahan/colony negara eropa. amerika selatan dan amerika latin (cuba waktu itu masih pro usa) sebagian besar ikut capitalism. tinggal daerah asia (tenggara) aja.
china udah jelas ikut communism. korea udah terbagi. vietnam sedang diperebutkan. waktu itu udah terbagi dan posisi france yang mundur digantikan oleh usa. tempat perang selanjutnya adalah .... engingeng .... indonesia.
indonesia pas sekali dalam hal posisi di peta fisik maupun politik. mempunyai banyak penduduk dan sumber daya alam termasuk minyak yang sangat penting. misal ikut komunis, australia dan new zealand akan terputus dan menjadi mangsa empuk tanpa kemungkinan bantuan cepat dari capitalists lain. indian ocean dan pacific ocean akan terputus. malaysia (singapore waktu itu masih bagian malaysia) akan jatuh. filipina akan terancam diserang.
cinta2 sukarno adalah menyatukan seluruh wilayah yang pernah menjadi bagian kerajaan kuno (majapahit dkk). salah satunya adalah malaysia. tentu aja ini dilarang oleh kubu capitalism yang dipimpin usa dan didukung soviet dari communism.
usa udah bener2 kalang kabut. NATO (eropa barat) masih ancur ga bisa apa2. waktu perang korea aja sampe terpaksa membangun jepang sebagai pusat supply terdekat. padahal awalnya pengen memeras jepang sebagai ganti rugi. baru aja selesai perang korea, masih ngos2an, eehhh ternyata muncul krisis di indochina (vietnam, cambodia). sekarang indonesia ikut2an pula.
tersebutlah suharto. jendral muda yang berambisi tapi ga bisa naik pangkat. soalnya musuhan ama jendral nasution, yang termasuk pentolan terbesar. sisanya ada sejarah. |
